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Poster: micah6vs8 Date: Aug 26, 2012 3:40pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Dylan @ the Newport Folk Festival 1965

I finally got around to watching Scorsese's film, No Direction Home. I can't say that I thought it was well crafted. Way, way, way too much lefty-> super lefty commentary. I mean, who really thinks Pete Seeger is going to be relevant in any way down the road, while Bob is going to be The artist of the the late 20th century. I loved the part when Pete, supposedly with ax in hand, was going to chop the electric cables to the stage. I know, stuff of myths and legends, but you ought to have heard these people whine and boo. He's one of ours, a voice of protest and change, these are his boundaries we determine. Following Dylan's set a triumphant Seegar stated that Bob looked awful and alone at the post festival party. Our very own Mary Muldaur (Ha!) said she went up to Bob and asked him to dance and he said he wish he could but his hands were on fire. Hyperbole maybe, but the music and lyrics he was writing and would continue to do so, maybe it had more then a grain of truth. No one, alone, has ever done what he did then or still has up this day.
Watching these clips of the week-end, he did only 2 electric songs while the rest was acoustic. What the hell did some of these people want? Dylan even did a Blowing in the Wind w/ a Mount Rushmore and more of folkies on what I gather was Sat. night. If Jerry pulled out a ukulele at the beginning of a show I think curiosity and possible amusement would be the first reactions.
The delicious part of this vid begins at 36:47 (really excellent sound and video quality) with Maggie's Farm and Like a Rolling Stone. Talk about a giant F.U and his statement of freedom from being the 'voice of a generation'. Both songs I think are the best versions ever performed, with an extra nudge to Maggie's Farm (turn to 11). A perfect, It's All Over Now, Baby Blue ends everything, and the choice speaks for itself. Dylan's electric world tour of '66 w/the Band (roughly) was on the horizon, and the smoking crater left behind at Newport was quite real and resonates (incredibly) to this day.

http://vimeo.com/24427964

E- I apologize for so many responses to posts.

This post was modified by micah6vs8 on 2012-08-26 22:40:40

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Poster: light into ashes Date: Aug 26, 2012 12:03pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Dylan @ the Newport Folk Festival 1965

I recommend the DVD The Other Side of the Mirror, which shows Dylan's Newport performances in '63, '64, and '65. You can watch him transform from year to year before your eyes. The '65 show is about the most dramatic live footage I know.
Unfortunately one of the '65 songs (Phantom Engineer) was edited out - he actually did 3 electric songs.

There were many possible explanations for the booing at Newport - people were upset that his set was so short, or that they couldn't hear the words, etc - but Dylan was clearly thrilled to have that kind of effect, and it spurred him on through the next year. (Although some bandmembers, Al Kooper & Levon Helm, later dropped out of the touring because of their alarm at the audiences.)

My only complaint about No Direction Home was it was too short. I'm surprised that you say there was too much lefty commentary. Considering Dylan in the early '60s was hanging out almost exclusively with folkies & civil-rights people - a pretty lefty bunch - and that he was publicly associated with their causes, it would be surprising if a lot of that didn't come through in their comments. I saw it as Scorsese portraying the environment of Dylan's early circles. Some of those people were complaining as early as '64 that Dylan was leaving progressive movements behind in his pursuit of the personal.

The really valuable part of the film was the '66 footage. It was astonishing to see how much Dylan left out of Eat The Document (which, admittedly, was not intended to be a document of the tour).

The thing I wish there was footage of is the event in '63 when Dylan was given the Tom Paine Award by the Emergency Civil Liberties Committee (more lefties!), shortly after Kennedy was shot. Dylan got drunk, went up & told the shocked audience he could identify with Lee Harvey Oswald...you bet there was booing that night!
http://www.corliss-lamont.org/dylan.htm

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Poster: micah6vs8 Date: Aug 26, 2012 4:16pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Dylan @ the Newport Folk Festival 1965

>The Other Side of the Mirror & Eat The Document
On the to do list. I didn't even know about Phantom Engineer. Many sources (it's been a Dylan week-end) mentioned 3 electric songs but I didn't put it together that one was missing.

I really liked Al Kooper in the doc, especially his keys story. He had the look of a Prankster about him too (that smile). The booing and the "Judas" seemed unnerving, but I kept thinking of Garcia still playing under death threats (and letting the Dire Wolf out for a ride) and it lost some of its impact. That's looking back though. I recognize the courage of Dylan and his Band and how draining it must have been.

I just thought that other voices ought to have been sought out, just not the same lefties. I get why Baez had a large role because she directly did, but Peter (P.P&M) Y.? Like 10+ passes? We get it after the first half where Dylan came from. Move on.

The Tom Paine Award was one of the best parts of the doc.

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Poster: light into ashes Date: Aug 26, 2012 5:23pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Dylan @ the Newport Folk Festival 1965

Eat the Document hasn't been officially released, though it should be easy to find. It's disappointing as a portrait of the tour - No Direction Home was much better in that regard. Apparently Dylan didn't like the way Don't Look Back had been done, and decided to make this one as a fragmentary avant-garde piece. It's still worthwhile for Dylan fanatics though, for a few clips...

Dylan's "protest period" only lasted a couple years - he seems to have been influenced by his (leftie!) girlfriend Suze Rotolo, the babe on the Freewheeling cover, though Baez may have rubbed off as well. Once he & Suze split up, that was it for "social conscience" songs, and his songs got much more internal. On his own he's never been very political.

Al Kooper couldn't face playing in Dallas! The Beatles also faced death threats, & their records being burned by religious nuts, when touring the South in '66. It's probably not too coincidental that both they & Dylan stopped touring that year, if for different reasons.

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Poster: leftwinger57 Date: Aug 27, 2012 7:15am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Dylan @ the Newport Folk Festival 1965

Just posing a question.Was this the doc. that also showed him on tour in England and w/ Joan Baez.I do remember them in a car traveling the English country side to a gig and getting interviewed by the British press.

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Poster: light into ashes Date: Aug 27, 2012 11:30am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Dylan @ the Newport Folk Festival 1965

Don't Look Back showed him on tour in England in '65, but Joan was barely there (Dylan kept her off to the side & ignored her; there's one funny scene where he's typing while she's singing), so you may be remembering No Direction Home which covers some of the same things. Murray Lerner's Newport docs (Festival & Other Side of the Mirror) also show Joan & Bob together, though not in England.

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Poster: bluedevil Date: Aug 26, 2012 2:33pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Dylan @ the Newport Folk Festival 1965

Yea, Pete Seeger's work with Alan Lomax and Woody Guthrie, let alone the Weavers, is really irrelevant to the history of the American musical tradition.

Where are the conservative protest signers?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oMzADAzipow

http://articles.latimes.com/2012/jul/12/entertainment/la-et-ms-bob-dylan-guitar-newport-pete-seeger-20120712

This post was modified by bluedevil on 2012-08-26 21:33:59

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Poster: William Tell Date: Aug 26, 2012 3:21pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Dylan @ the Newport Folk Festival 1965

"Where are the conservative protest signers?"

Maria and Linda ate them?

JK, I love them both...

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Poster: micah6vs8 Date: Aug 26, 2012 3:29pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Dylan @ the Newport Folk Festival 1965

I'm not playing for any team, just noticing. Why righties have made so little impact culturally I don't care. Let them gaze at their own navel.

I can't agree with you on the Weavers (snooze and forgotten except by by those with a deep understanding of that time and culture). Woody Guthrie you bet, but he played solo a ton or with others as well. Lomax I know only through his work with the Library of Congress.

Good to have you back BD.

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Poster: apacinobj77 Date: Aug 26, 2012 5:50pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Dylan @ the Newport Folk Festival 1965

Mary Muldaur??? Pete Seeger and the Weavers, Peter Yarrow irrelevant??? Obviously our resident expert on the 60s has spoken!!!

Please give your pseudo intellectual wikipedia infused shtick a rest. This alter ego of yours is only outdone by your sensitive new aged guy rap.

Face it Micah, you know nothing. You know less than nothing. If you even knew that you knew nothing, at least that would be something, but you don't. Blinded by the white right, revved up like a douche another runner in the night.

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Poster: user unknown Date: Aug 26, 2012 6:30pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Dylan @ the Newport Folk Festival 1965

apacino...rdeniro's alter ego?
Whatever!

"first time poster"? lighten up dude

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Poster: rdenirojb87 Date: Aug 27, 2012 1:28pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Dylan @ the Newport Folk Festival 1965

apacinobj77, eh? Nice name. I wonder how you came up with that. But seriously, why don't you stop being a huge pussy, and post with your real user name?

How gutless can you be, to not even have the balls to post with your real user name? The ultimate form of internet cowardice.

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Poster: micah6vs8 Date: Aug 26, 2012 6:08pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Dylan @ the Newport Folk Festival 1965

Oh, mairzy doats and dozy dotes and liddle lamzy divy,
A kiddly divy too, wooden shoe?
Oh mairzy doats and dozy dots and liddle lamzy divy,
A kiddly divy too, wooden shoe?
Now, if the words sound queer, and funny to your ear,
A little bit jumbled, and jivy,
Sing 'Mares eat oats, and Does eat oats, and little lambs eat ivy'

First time posters, paragons of courage.

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Poster: SomeDarkHollow Date: Aug 27, 2012 9:12am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Dylan @ the Newport Folk Festival 1965

I'd have to say the pinnacle of the folk movement was at this event:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W0hyExZ9Dfo

http://www.metacafe.com/watch/mv-KADJ/never_did_no_wanderin/

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Poster: bluedevil Date: Aug 27, 2012 9:35am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Dylan @ the Newport Folk Festival 1965

I second that emotion. Love that film. Best in Show is pretty damn good as well.

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Poster: SomeDarkHollow Date: Aug 27, 2012 9:50am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Dylan @ the Newport Folk Festival 1965

Dylan wished he wrote this:

Wanderin’
Never did no wanderin’

My mother was the cold North wind,
My daddy was the son, of a railroad man from west of hell,
Where the trains don’t even run

Never heard the whistle of a lonesome freight,
Or the singing of it’s driving wheel,
No I, never did not wanderin’
Never did no wanderin’
Never did no wanderin’ after all

They say they highway’s just one big road,
And it goes from here to there,
And they say you carry a heavy load,
When you’re rolling down the line somewhere

Never seen the dance of the telephone poles,
As they go whizzin’ by,
Never did no wanderin’
Never did no wanderin’
Never did no wanderin’ after all

Never did no wanderin’…..high!
Never did no wanderin’…..low!

Now a sailor’s life is a life for him,
But it never was for me,
And I never soared where the hawk may soar,
Or see what the hawk might see,

Never hiked to heaven on a mountain trail,
Never rode on a river’s rage
Never did no wanderin’
Never did no wanderin’
Never did no wanderin’ after all

Easy now!
Never did no wanderin’
Never did no wanderin’
Never did no wanderin’ after all

No I never did no wanderin’ after all

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Poster: Reade Date: Aug 26, 2012 2:09pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Dylan @ the Newport Folk Festival 1965

Just saw the film for the first time myself. His electric stuff from '65-'66 in many instances is sublime. Garage Band Perfection. 'Lepoard Skin Pillbox Hat'- what a great song.

Another lady also recently saw the film and reckoned she might have that Fender Strat he used that night in her attic. And she did!
http://www.pbs.org/opb/historydetectives/investigation/bob-dylan-guitar/

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Poster: jerlouvis Date: Aug 26, 2012 2:25pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Dylan @ the Newport Folk Festival 1965

Sublime indeed,here is a beautiful vocal over psychedelic backing.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EpatC8sR-KU

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Poster: Dudley Dead Date: Aug 26, 2012 8:57pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Dylan @ the Newport Folk Festival 1965

Micah:I saw this post this morning, but couldn't respond, but it has grown ! "No Direction Home" is wonderful, but can in no way encapsulate the whole deal ! Some of the anger aimed at him from Newport through the 66 tours , was this sense of betrayal . He was no longer "one of theirs". He wasn't writing straight ahead protest songs anymore, and the turning to the "commercial" sound of Rock n' Roll ! I wonder how many of those folks listened to "My Back Pages" on "Another Side" ( I sure wish some my overly political friends would listen to it today) ? Frankly he went beyond these people, and deepened his world and artistic vision . "It's Alright Ma" is protest song of a much deeper level (though I think his earlier songs are very good and age well, with a few exceptions). There is a vid I have seen of Woody and folks singing "Which side are you on", By 65, Dylan is having none of it, mocks this in "Desolation Row"
Praise be to Nero’s Neptune
The Titanic sails at dawn
And everybody’s shouting
“Which Side Are You On?”
Both sides are on the doomed ship, and are going down .
I have always wondered, in those 66 shows, the heckling and booing there, He had had one half electric, and one fully electric ( ok Desolation row is acoustic ) album out by then didn't they know ? And why didn't they just leave , since the electric portion was last ? The last word I heard that this was revenge, for his betrayal of the "party line" by, I kid you not, members of the English communist party ! The heckling is not just spontaneous, and it was meant to throw him off ( you can hear this in some of the shows). This climaxes in the famous, ( In the film ! YES) "Judas !". "I don't believe you, you're a liar (to the band) play fucking loud man ".
There are plenty of people in that "folk" movement, who's music I love, regardless of their political slant, but some of those people were little "Nazis, and ultimately clueless .

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Poster: micah6vs8 Date: Aug 27, 2012 9:17am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Dylan @ the Newport Folk Festival 1965

One aspect of No Direction Home I did like, though it too was in danger of being overcooked, were the press conferences. (Do they still have them anymore? The last one I recall was the GD Rainforest Presser.) Dylan made it clear again and again that he was not going to be put in a box. His answers were goofy but it wasn't hard to hear his intent. I wish I could remember the stupid question asked when he was tired/angry/sick, and you could feel the lash and venom 47 years later (talk about reach).

It was sad to see Johnny Cash so high at Newport '64. His face was practically peeling back from his skull.

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Poster: Dudley Dead Date: Aug 27, 2012 11:04am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Dylan @ the Newport Folk Festival 1965

Cash was pretty messed up in that era . But he was one of the few that defended Dylan ("just let the man sing"). It is funny, electric instruments were used in country music bands, and blues bands that played Newport . One thing I will give the people who's objection was not "ideological"; sound reinforcement was shit in those days . Our boys, and Bear deserve a lot of credit for improvement in the sound of loud electric music, but even that was a slow trial an error process, but in 1965/66.... And , to make matters worse, I believe Dylan refused to do a sound check for Newport! You couldn't make out the words, a problem ! So even if you were receptive to the electric sound, It was another leap to accept the distortion inherent in those early PAs. and inaudibility of the lyrics of an artist who was famous those lyrics .

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Poster: micah6vs8 Date: Aug 27, 2012 12:05pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Dylan @ the Newport Folk Festival 1965

In my possible delusions I believe he had something quite direct to say to all the folkies, ect., which I've come to learn was totally defeated by them not being able to hear the lyrics.

Hey, have you seen this?

http://tinyurl.com/9t9ls27

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Poster: Dudley Dead Date: Aug 27, 2012 12:35pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Dylan @ the Newport Folk Festival 1965

Nice painting ! Have you heard the semi electric 1st take he rejected ?
Well, on the acoustic numbers, at least his words were decreeable . At Newpot he did "Baby Blue" , which should have said it, and live Desolation Row, was always acoustic . In fact during those acoustic sets, it is almost pin drop quiet . Uptight , but quiet .
Now this sort of stuffiness seems sort of refreshing, these days ! How often at a Dead concert, at the quietest, most beautiful moment, some meathead is whooping "AHHHHUUUGGGHHH" , or talking, whistling etc. I saw Dylan with Tom Petty, years ago . In his acoustic segment, he did "Hard Rain", one of the best performances I have ever seen him do live . "..I heard 10,000 whispering, and nobody listenin'" and the crowd were all talking, and not listening, oblivious too what was being given to them .It was creepy, scary .

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Poster: light into ashes Date: Aug 27, 2012 12:38am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Dylan @ the Newport Folk Festival 1965

A lot of people came specifically to boo. Of course his "going electric" was old news by then - Rolling Stone was already a hit - but those English folkies were a super-righteous bunch! In Eat the Document some of them are interviewed coming out of a show, complaining about his "rubbish" music & saying things like, "He's a traitor, he needs shooting," etc.

You can even see early murmurs of discontent in Don't Look Back (May '65) - Dylan's talking to some girl who says she doesn't like Subterranean Homesick Blues, and he explains, "I have to give some work to my friends..." (Meanwhile, you can also see him on the side checking out electric guitars & talking to a band that did electric covers of his songs.)

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Poster: William Tell Date: Aug 26, 2012 12:57pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Dylan @ the Newport Folk Festival 1965

At least he never got fat...

Here's a pic of some who did, but I am not complaining. They did good either way, and as one with my own horizontal expansion challenges I won't worry about passing the President's Fitness Test of 1965.

Attachment: MMLR_BR.jpg

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Poster: user unknown Date: Aug 26, 2012 2:27pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Dylan @ the Newport Folk Festival 1965

Dylan lost his heart, and sold his soul to rock and roll. Maria and Linda look better fat than Dylan will ever look to anyone other than the narcissistic egomaniac he became after beginning to believe the drivel written about him in the charlatan music press.


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Poster: micah6vs8 Date: Aug 26, 2012 4:13pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Dylan @ the Newport Folk Festival 1965

Strong brew Bill. I gather you would have booed. Since my first experience with Dylan was Blood on the Tracks and looking through my Dad's old R.S., I never saw "the drivel written". He was always making a comeback or now a Christian or going through the '80's. Not much adulation then.

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Poster: user unknown Date: Aug 26, 2012 4:44pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Dylan @ the Newport Folk Festival 1965

My post wassomewhat tongue in cheek. I am a minor Dylan fan, but have never seen him as the walk on water singer/songwriter many laud him to be. BTW Mr. Zimmerman will never be the singer/songwriter/protest musician that pete is. And if Woody hadn't given Bob Blowing In The Wind, at least I hope it was a gift, Bob may not have gotten as far as he has come.

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Poster: light into ashes Date: Aug 26, 2012 5:16pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Dylan @ the Newport Folk Festival 1965

Dylan will never be the singer or songwriter that Pete Seeger was? Woody Guthrie gave Dylan Blowing in the Wind?
My goodness! What an educational thread this has been...

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Poster: user unknown Date: Aug 26, 2012 5:35pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Dylan @ the Newport Folk Festival 1965

You left off the third part of the criteria..."protest singer". And there. Has long been suspicion the Bob was given, some say stole it, "Blowing In The Wind". Maybe just another conspiracy theory.

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Poster: micah6vs8 Date: Aug 26, 2012 5:58pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Dylan @ the Newport Folk Festival 1965

This has been educational for me with no tongue in cheek. I just don't see Blowing in the Wind as such a big deal. It takes so much drive and willpower to say nothing of incredible talent to become a Big Boy/Girl in any field. Dylan had already shown he had the goods. I mean no one else trekked out to Brooklyn State Hospital or Creedmore to spend time with Guthrie. He saw an opportunity to grow as an artist and took it. All artists are prostitutes or thieves to a certain degree. If Blowing in the Wind wasn't, shall say we say taken, other opportunities would have presented themselves. Living in the Village right at that time didn't hurt either. Did he steal Times They Are A Changing from Seegar as well? Masters of War?

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Poster: user unknown Date: Aug 26, 2012 6:26pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Dylan @ the Newport Folk Festival 1965

Wasn't "Blowing" Bob's first "hit"? Didn't it give him the initial exposure that he admottedlt built on? Whether it was a gift, or "pirate's booty", he took the money and ran. And I don't know that Dylan ever stole anything from Pete. Dylan definitely was a product of the genre that produced both Woody and Pete.

And Robert Hunter is every bit as good a songwriter as Robert Zimmerman.

This post was modified by user unknown on 2012-08-27 01:26:19

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Poster: light into ashes Date: Aug 26, 2012 6:25pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Dylan @ the Newport Folk Festival 1965

Any suspicions that Dylan "stole" Blowing from anybody were quite unfounded. (Though there was a hilarious rumor that he took it from some New Jersey high school kid... http://www.snopes.com/music/songs/blowin.asp )
He did base the tune on the traditional song No More Auction Block; that kind of borrowing was common in the folk world. (For instance he also used the tune of Woody's "1913 Massacre" for his own "Song to Woody." A somewhat less charitable borrowing was when he adapted Paul Clayton's "Who's Gonna Buy You Ribbons" for his own "Don't Think Twice.")

Anyway, Dylan's fame started when Peter Paul & Mary covered Blowing in the Wind. (Not coincidentally at all, Albert Grossman was the manager for both Dylan and PPM, and Albert was keen on getting Dylan song royalties.) Then of course Joan Baez did her best to introduce him to her audience. Without other people covering his work, Dylan would probably have gained very few listeners in the early '60s; but the combination of sweet-voiced covers & a pile of memorable songs sent him up like a rocket in the folk world. It's perhaps hard to imagine now how amazed people were to hear all these instantly-classic songs coming from this whiny-sounding kid from nowhere.

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Poster: micah6vs8 Date: Aug 26, 2012 7:42pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Dylan @ the Newport Folk Festival 1965

O.K. early '60's, but do you think that would have changed? I understand we are now deep in the jungle of counter factual history, but wouldn't have broken through at some point?

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Poster: light into ashes Date: Aug 26, 2012 8:22pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Dylan @ the Newport Folk Festival 1965

If he never broke through, that would be so counter-factual it wouldn't be Dylan... If it wasn't Blowing in the Wind there were still plenty of other songs for people to cover. Even assuming the 'protest phase' had just been a brief blip neglected by the media, later things like Tambourine Man & Rolling Stone sure made splashes.
Dylan's record sales in the '60s were never that high - he was someone who was super-influential on other musicians but didn't make the charts much. His voice bothered too many people... I could be wrong about this, but I think Greatest Hits & Nashville Skyline were his two best-selling albums of the decade!

To take the Dead as an example - though Garcia was a folkie, he apparently didn't like Dylan until Bringing It All Back Home in '65. (That was also when Lesh got into him, I think.) I think it wasn't til '65 that Dylan got played on AM radio stations too, with singles like Subterranean & Rolling Stone. So the kind of cultural notice Dylan received when he went 'rock' was wider than when he was known as a protest folk-singer.

I'm reminded of when Dylan showed up at the Concert for Bangladesh in '71... George Harrison asked him to sing Blowing in the Wind. Dylan replied, "Are you gonna sing I Want To Hold Your Hand?" (But then he did it anyway.)

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Poster: William Tell Date: Aug 26, 2012 8:41pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Dylan @ the Newport Folk Festival 1965

Yikes...I thought the anti Dylan folks/posts were jokes; probably are?

Anyone that thinks Bob wasn't absolutely HUGE wasn't there. And yes, absolutely agree, the folk stuff was really almost a "preBob" footnote for 95% of the audience. He really made it big from 65 on, and all you have to do is to think of all the Byrds covers (and everyone else!) to recognize that all the bands loved his stuff as well...Hell, he even made fun of Donovan, eh?